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“It’s good to have money and the things that money can buy, but it’s good, too, to check up once in a while and make sure you haven’t lost the things that money can’t buy.” - George Horace Lorimer, Editor-in-Chief of The Saturday Evening Post
Money - it’s a funny old thing. It holds the power to shape our lives and the world around us, but does it truly define who we are? Is it really that important? When do the dollars really make sense?
In this delightful conversation, we sit down with Sasha Lockley, the founder of Money Sweetspot, and Mark Francis, the guru behind DebtManagers, to talk about money, mahi, and meaning. Below, they’ll share their personal insights and financial stories, answering the big questions around what money means to them, and provide tips on navigating your way towards a purpose-led view on finance.
So grab a cup of coffee and prepare to embark on a lighthearted and enlightening journey into the realm of money matters.
Let’s start with something a little philosophical: what does money mean to you?
Sasha Lockley, founder of Money Sweetspot, is first to respond and kicks us off with a common sentiment that many Kiwis hold around money, and how it can have a significant impact on not just our financial wellbeing, but our self-worth too.
“When I was younger, I had a salary ‘goal’, as I thought that would mean I was successful, or financially stable, or ‘worthy’. But it isn’t true,” she explains.
Money for money’s sake isn’t really going to add purpose or value to your life.
“Money represents my ability to pay my bills, feed my family, and have some choices and options - but it doesn’t bring me joy or define who I am as a person. There’s a reality that we need to have enough money to live - but money for money’s sake isn’t really going to add purpose or value to your life.”
Turning to Mark, he expands that idea to the wider community around a person too, and how money is just a “means to an end”, not an end in itself.
“It provides a pathway and opportunity to achieve your goals,” he begins.
“For me personally, it’s all about supporting my own whānau and their ambitions. For our business, the opportunity is in growth, development of our people, and greater momentum to create change. Money provides that.”
We then asked Sasha and Mark about how those ideas apply to debt. Both Sasha and Mark grew up in households where, in Mark’s words, “there wasn’t a lot of money around”, and debt was a regular pressure. If their focus around money is about the joys and opportunities it brings, how do they view debt and how it impacts their customers?
“I think it’s the same for our customers too. Moving out of debt and obtaining a sense of control over money presents genuine opportunities - move into new jobs, or get better accommodation, or just provide for their loved ones,” says Mark.
Moving out of debt and obtaining a sense of control over money presents genuine opportunities - move into new jobs, or get better accommodation, or just provide for … loved ones.
Sasha echoes that sentiment, tying it into why Money Sweetspot is designed as a financial reset, not just debt consolidation.
“We see it as a win when people pay off their debt with us. We genuinely want to help people out of debt, so they can get on with their lives. There’s way more interesting things that they could be spending their money on than repayments to us,” she says.
“Money makes life happen. We want to enable people to experience more without being held back by debt repayments.”
Mark summarises with this neat statement:
“Whilst it’s not the be-all and end-all, money is pretty powerful - but you have to know why you need it, and how much you need.”
Money and financial wellbeing is a broad topic and the lessons are sometimes hard-learned. In their personal and professional lives, both Sasha and Mark have seen the impact that good financial education can have on building better outcomes for everyone.
For Mark, the best lesson he ever had was that “we need to be able to talk about money” if we want to see progress as individuals and as a society.
“I’ve learnt that if you do talk about money, there are people that can (and want to!) help as well as solutions to be found. We just have to talk about it. I don’t mean how rich you are or how much your new shoes cost, but talk about the reality of money,” he says.
“I grew up in a house with not a lot of money around and I remember how crippling it is if you’re not upfront about your finances - whether that’s because of whakamā or shame, or just inability to face up to the situation (emotionally or intellectually).”
If we leave these feelings to sit silent, they will inevitably grow into bigger, more negative impacts.
“If we leave these feelings to sit silent, they will inevitably grow into bigger, more negative impacts – on individuals and their health, wellbeing, happiness and into their whānau and communities.”
Sasha’s lesson is in a similar vein, focusing on the emotional impact that feeling out of control with money can bring. While she agreed that being able to talk openly and honestly about money is key, she also highlighted the need for self-talk around money too.
“How I spend money and think about money isn’t rational. It’s built on foundations and stories passed down through my family and friends. I’m an emotional eater and an emotional spender - this means that, when I’m struggling emotionally, I have to be more mindful about what’s really driving me to spend money (or eat pasta and cheese, my go-to comfort food!)” she explains.
We reckon this is something that a lot of people can relate to - the person writing this certainly can! - so we asked Sasha for any advice she might have around mastering money mindfulness. She kindly obliged.
“I’ve got this approach called ‘the space in-between’ that I try to use with my emotions and with my spending,” she begins.
That’s OK. I’m never going to be perfect.
“Between the ‘I want to eat/buy’ and the action of eating or buying, there’s always a tiny space where I can be conscious of why I’m doing it. That’s a space that I’ve cultivated through working to recognise when I’m feeling a certain way, and forcing myself to take a step back from doing something I might later regret.”
“Sometimes it stops the action, and sometimes it doesn’t. That’s OK. I’m never going to be perfect.”
Time for brass tacks! We asked both Sasha and Mark for the best advice they’ve ever been given around money. These are what they came up with:
Check what you’re really spending rather than what you think you are. I download my bank statements and then summarise the spending as a reality check.
If you want to save for something, create a savings account that is named after the thing you’re saving for, or the reason you’re saving.
Money doesn’t define you as a human - your worth is so much more. I’ve had times where I’ve had money, and times where I haven’t. Our worth, impact and contribution to our family, friends and community is always so much more than the cash we ever had in our pocket.
There are very few people who have the money to do everything they want. Having a clear idea of what matters most helps shape your budget, makes you accountable for your actions but, probably most importantly, creates a sense of reward and achievement when we do get there. I’ve struggled to find anything more impactful for someone than having a purpose.
I’m a firm believer that to raise a family and live in a prosperous community, it takes a village. So, it frustrates me when people lose sight of that tautoko, lending your time as well as showing love and care for others are important ways we can contribute, beyond just paying for dinner or a school uniform. Money doesn’t necessarily reflect the most important contributions in the village.
I think one of our greatest failings in Aotearoa is that we are rarely taught financial skills and literacy. A financial education is crucial for everyone, but especially for those with limited income. There are resources in our community that can help you understand the basics of personal finance – we just need to do a better job at getting people to know it's there and attend. From personal experience, I know that learning these skills from a trusted, friendly financial mentor is much nicer than learning it as you try to climb back up from rock bottom.
Sasha and Mark are both active on Linkedin and would love to connect with you to chat more about the meaning behind money. Find their profiles at the links below.
Sasha Lockley, Money Sweetspot Co-Founder and CEO.
Mark Francis, DebtManagers General Manager.
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